A Defending Crusader…

The best defense is to be good and offensive…or something like that.

Who is That Prophet? (Part the last)

Posted by Godefroi on December 3, 2008

Terminus of debate.

Godefroi,

If you believe the trinity, then If ‘another’ comforter was to come, the it cannot be the holy spirit as it would already be there.

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” John 14: 16

The emphasis here is on the word “ANOTHER,” an other, a different one, an additional one, but of the same kind, yet distinctly different from the first. Who is then the first Comforter? The Christian world is unanimous that in this case the speaker himself — Jesus Christ (pbuh) is the first Comforter; then the other, the one to follow must be of like nature, subject to the same conditions of hunger, thirst, fatigue, sorrow and death.

And also, that New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophecy of ‘ONE LIKE MOSES’, refer John 1:19-25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief:

“…….ELIAS TRULY SHALL FIRST COME, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIAS IS COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT,…THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST.” (Matthew 17:11-13).

However, When questions of 1) ART THOU THE CHRIST?, 2) ART THOU ELIAS?, 3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET? were posed to John the Baptist by the Jewish elite- “ART THOU THAT PROPHET? AND HE ANSWERED, NO.” (John 1:21) The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET. ..and who was ‘THAT PROPHET?

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto
thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto
them all that I shall command him.” Deuteronomy 18:18.

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words “the Prophet”, or “that Prophet” occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that ‘that prophet’ – ‘the prophet like Moses’ – “LIKE UNTO THEE”, we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus!

“In Christian religions that trace their roots to belief in the Nicene Creed, the Holy Spirit (Hebrew: רוח הקודש Ruah haqodesh; Greek: Άγιον Πνεύμα; Latin: Spiritus Sanctus; also called the Holy Ghost) is the third consubstantial Person of the Holy Trinity or the Godhead. As such, Christians with a definitional basis in the Nicene Creed view the Holy Spirit as God himself or the Breath of God, a form of God, or a manifestation of God. Other Christians which do not rely on the Nicene Creed believe the Holy Spirit to be one of three main entities (including God the Father and Jesus Christ).”

As Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, then he is of the brethren of Moses who descends from Isaacs. Ishmael and Isaacs were brothers. therefore it is not about you tellling me how it is considered, it is about what they were.

So what are the similarities? Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course. Moses and Muhummed married and begat children. Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God’s creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment – HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. Moses and
Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths. Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth. Therefore, Muhummed is like Moses.

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs – so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.’ (Genesis 16:12). ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- ‘FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN’.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the ‘children of Israel’ or from ‘among themselves’, but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

“The prophecy proceeds further:’…….AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH…….’ History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: ‘IQRA’ which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! During the next twenty-three years of his prophetic life, words were ‘Put into his mouth’, and he uttered them. The words (revelation) were actually put into his mouth, exactly as foretold in the prophecy under discusion: ‘AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.’ (Deut. 18:18). In the verse 19 of Deuteronomy chapter 18, we have a further fulfilment of the prophecy in Muhummed! Note the words-’…..MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME,” In whose name is Muhummed speaking….. “IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.” Quran 113, “IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL” Quran 112, 111, 110, etc. Every chapter of the Holy Qur’an except the 9th begin with the formula: IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.’

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto
thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto
them all that I shall command him.” Deuteronomy 18:18.

Does this look like a copy/paste from some other source to anyone but me?  Anyway, my response below, which went unanswered.

Very well…

“If you believe the trinity, then If ‘another’ comforter was to come, the it cannot be the holy spirit as it would already be there.”

Trinitarian issues aside, Jesus said specifically that the parakletos was the Holy Spirit. See again John 14:26. Was he wrong? If so, then he was a false prophet and is to be reviled and rejected by all.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is the first Comforter; then the other, the one to follow must be of like nature, subject to the same conditions of hunger, thirst, fatigue, sorrow and death.

The “other”, Greek allos (άλλος), means simply another.  Your assertion that it includes “like nature” is not supported in the text. 

“…the Jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophecy of ‘ONE LIKE MOSES’,…”

John 5:46 – Jesus said “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me.” The prophet Moses wrote about is in Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18. Also see John 1:45: “Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” and John 6:14-15: “After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, ‘Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.’ Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.” Note that Jesus did not rebuke or correct anyone here, so either He and they were correct and Jesus was “that prophet”, or Jesus was making/accepting a false claim.

There is no rule that more than one prophecy can’t be fulfilled by only one person.

“Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course. Moses and Muhummed married and begat children … Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths. Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth.”

Nothing special here…this is true of all of humanity.

“Every chapter of the Holy Qur’an except the 9th begin with the formula: IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.”

Irrelevant. I can say something “in the name of God” (in fact, many do this every time they pray), but it doesn’t make me a prophet. Also, did Moses ever use this phrase you quoted? If not, then isn’t that a difference between Moses and Muhammad?  And why is it not part of the 9th sura?  Is that one not from God?

“Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime”

Nothing unique here either.  I would contend that it’s also not true, as Muhammad spent 12 years or so as a reject before conquering.

“Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings.”

Again, not unique. David and Solomon (Dawud & Sulayman) come immediately to mind.\

“Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13).”

This is probably trifling, but that’s Numbers 15:36, and it wasn’t Moses who commanded death, but God (see the whole section 15:32-36).

“Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people.”

As did Jesus.

So far the similarities are superficial, and nothing about what made Moses special is dealt with. Again, I submit Deut 34:10-12: “And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, [none equal to him] in all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt–to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, and in all the mighty power and all the great and terrible deeds which Moses wrought in the sight of all Israel.”

There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the ‘children of Israel’ or from ‘among themselves’, but from among their brethren.”

Let’s look at more of Deut 18:

1 THE LEVITICAL priests and all the tribe of Levi shall have no part or inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings made by fire to the Lord, and His rightful dues.
2 They shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance, as He promised them.

Here’s the “brethren” again…clearly Israelites.

15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet (Prophet) from the midst of your brethren like me [Moses]; to him you shall listen.
16 This is what you desired [and asked] of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.
17 And the Lord said to me, They have well said all that they have spoken.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Based on your premise, according to 18:18 the prophet would not come from Israel…that does not follow from what’s written in the preceding verses, or the entire chapter.

In verse 17, “they” obviously refers to the Jews. Logically, the “them” and “their” in 18 would also have to be the Jews.

“…it is not about you tellling me how it is considered, it is about what they were.”

This simply does not make sense. If this is a prophecy for Jews, it would use the language and idiom and expression and understanding of the Jews. In the entire Old Testament, never once are the descendants of Ishmael or Hagar referred to as brethren. On the contrary, they are called enemies of God (Psalm 83:2-6). There is NO evidence to conclude that the Deuteronomy prophecy is any different.

Here are the points I mentioned the first time which you did not address.

1) THE LORD DID NOT PUT WORDS IN MUHAMMAD’S MOUTH, BUT RATHER “JIBREEL” DID. Moses and Jesus knew God directly
2) SURA 9:128 SAYS: “NOW HATH COME UNTO YOU A MESSENGER FROM ‘AMONGST YOURSELVES’ (NOT FROM THE JEWS).” Not a prophet “in Israel”
3) IF THE COMFORTER OR ADVOCATE WILL ABIDE WITH THEM (OR US) FOREVER, HE CAN NOT BE HUMAN, BECAUSE HUMANS DIE. [Ref. John 14:16] HE CAN ALSO NOT BE MUHAMMAD BECAUSE MUHAMMAD DID NOT ARRIVE UNTIL NEARLY 500 YEARS AFTER THE LAST OF THE HEARERS OF THIS HAD DIED, SO HE WASN’T WITH THEM AT ALL.
ALSO, THE IDEA THAT GOD (WHO IS SPIRIT) CAN NOT SPEAK OR HEAR IS LUDICROUS EVEN BY YOUR OWN TEXTS. OR, AS MUHAMMAD MIGHT SAY…ARE GOD’S HANDS CHAINED?

Finally, the part that I forgot to address the first time:

“And he (Moses) said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose from Seir unto them; he shined Forth from mount Paran (that is in Arabia), and he (Muhummed) came with Ten Thousand Saints:3from his right hand went a fiery law For them.Deuteronomy 33: 2

More: Deut 33:1-2 “THIS IS the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the Israelites before his death. He said, ‘The Lord came from Sinai and beamed upon us from Seir; He flashed forth from Mount Paran, from among ten thousands of holy ones, a flaming fire, a law, at His right hand.’”

This is not a prophecy…it’s in the past tense at the time of Moses, and it’s a BLESSING on the ISRAELITES (not the Ishmaelites).

From Jude 1:14-19 “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.”

The part of the prophecy about their coming was fulfilled at the time this was written. The part about the Lord coming (note, this is God doing this, not one of the prophets) with myriads of holy ones is not yet fulfilled, as the time of judgment has not yet arrived. Paran is not mentioned here at all.

So there it is.  Thanks for tagging along.  Anyone else want to play?  🙂

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